I'm not sure from his comment if Joshua understood what the bug is or not so just to be absolutely sure that I'm being clear: If you enter a nether portal facing WEST, you should come out the other end facing WEST; if you enter facing EAST, you should come out facing EAST; and so on. That is the way it behaved in the past. In 1.4.1 pre, if I enter a portal facing WEST, I may come out facing NORTH. I haven't worked out all the contributing factors but it seems to behave differently in different circumstances.
Markku, thanks for the detailed comment. I suppose I could live with the behavior you describe although I still think that it's over-thinking the problem. IMHO, trying for "Portal-like behavior" was a misguided, although well-meant, idea. It was a thoroughly unnecessary change. It's just so much simpler to count on having your facing preserved whenever you go through any portal. Trying to achieve "Portal-like behavior" just introduces unnecessary complexity which is bound to lead to bugs (as we have seen).
I'm not entirely convinced this is a duplicate of MC-6162, although it's possible that the root cause may be the same. If you say it is, I won't argue too much, but I would be sad if that were somehow fixed and this were not.
Once again, you have fixed a "bug" that didn't need fixing. Fixing this breaks SO many useful builds. Anything that wanted to auto-empty a dispenser or dropper now requires much more complex redstone. I would very much like to see this "fix" reversed.
Chad: Telling people to stop complaining about a change is counter productive. I thought the whole point of making an open database like this was to acquire feedback from the users. I'm really happy that they have provided a place where I can offer my feedback and I completely respect their right to ignore my feedback when they think I'm wrong. But don't tell me not to provide it in the first place. As for your reasoning, it was quite possible to determine how full a dispenser was before this fix, so I have no idea what you were talking about there.
Jeb: I realized that there were performance implications but I still quite liked the behavior. Still, I can understand why you would feel the need to fix it for performance reasons.
Chad: The snapshot is released. I had played with it before I posted. So I guess you must not have been directing your comments at me? Either way, this is probably getting out of hand. My bad there. I'm not really worked up about this although my excessive posting may make it seem that way. It's not that big of a deal. I'll stop now.
Unfortunately, yes, it seems to have been completely fixed now. Why was it changed from 13w07a? I thought that was a reasonable compromise. Now the build I was working on is going to need to be quite a bit larger.
No. It's NOT fixed in 13w09c. And a sideways stacking system does NOT work perfectly. It works a little better than it used to but I have verified that it is still quite broken.
My method for reproducing this: create a simple redstone repeater clock. A bunch of repeaters in a circle set to 4 ticks with a simple pulse injector to get them going should do the trick. Now leave the chunk (I usually see it by entering the nether and reentering the world in a different chunk). Go back and every now and then the clock will no longer be operating.
It doesn't always happen. On 13w09c, I'm seeing it only rarely.
@Kumasasa: I can confirm Rocket Turtle's observations. Horizontal hopper behavior now appears to work correctly. Vertical behavior still seems to be a little less correct.
This is a great improvement and I could live with this just it is now but it doesn't appear to be 100% correct just yet.
@Aikar: Be very careful with that. Triggering physics on chunk load runs the real risk of breaking a lot of devices, since it would mean triggering block updates for no reason other than that the chunk loaded. A better solution would be to defer unloading a chunk until all redstone behavior is in a safe state.
"Fixing" this behavior for droppers and dispensers was a big mistake, IMHO. A lot of very useful and compact designs are now broken as a result of this "fix". Rapid fire dispensers are now impossible. Dropper towers (for moving items vertically) now require significantly more complicated redstone and operate significantly slower. I am going to have to rebuild a significant amount of things in my world as a result of this change. Does "fixing" this behavior actually help anyone in any significant way? This was a fix that yields no real benefit and causes a significant amount of disruption. Please reconsider this one.
@kbk: I'm glad that they still at least react to a 1 tick clock but the fact is that this still breaks a lot of stuff for very little gain. Of all of the things that this breaks, this one saddens me the most: http://youtu.be/XNaYFhl9Pqc
I will find a work-around, of course, but there is no chance of it ever being this compact or this simple.
@Jonathan Haas: No. I am not. That bug is about powered dispensers/droppers responding to block updates. This bug is about powered items responding to redstone updates. There is a subtle but important difference. The device I linked above was broken by MC-846 and would have been fixed with MC-846's fix if this bug had not also been fixed for dispensers.
Edit: OK. So I thought you were referring to yet ANOTHER bug. The one about powered dispensers responding to block updates. Now that I actually bothered to READ the bug you linked, turns out I was wrong. You were right. hangs head in shame
Good heavens. So much arguing over what would be just so darn simple if the game never changed the player's orientation at all. I still fail to understand why it was ever changed. Enter facing N, exit facing N. What's so hard about that? It's predictable. It's understandable. And it's trivial to orient your portals to exploit it.
Can we please just put it back to the way it was and stop trying to engineer overcomplicated solutions to something that was never a real problem to begin with?
I'm not arguing that your proposed fix is bad. (In fact, I'd be quite happy if Mojang would implement it.) I'm arguing that if your fix seems too difficult or risky or time consuming to the developers, they would be far better served to revert to having NO facing changes whatsoever. At least that made some sense. The way it is now makes no sense whatsoever.
And despite what you may say, it is NOT clear to me that even a significant minority of players felt there was any problem at all with the original behavior.
At least that was predictable behavior and it was easy to build your portals to accomodate it. Instead we have today's situation, where my carefully placed portals, which used to line up perfectly, now leave me always facing a pillar due to a seemingly random change which seems to have benefited nobody.
There is no way that you can convince me that the behavior we have now is an improvement. If Mojang is unwilling or unable to fix it properly, they should at least put it back the way it was! Even if only until they find the time to implement a proper fix! Please!
Steve Blanding
MC-3![[Mojang] Nathan Adams](../../../data/assets/gravatar/dinnerbone.png){kind=small}
I'm not sure from his comment if Joshua understood what the bug is or not so just to be absolutely sure that I'm being clear: If you enter a nether portal facing WEST, you should come out the other end facing WEST; if you enter facing EAST, you should come out facing EAST; and so on. That is the way it behaved in the past. In 1.4.1 pre, if I enter a portal facing WEST, I may come out facing NORTH. I haven't worked out all the contributing factors but it seems to behave differently in different circumstances.
Well if that was their intention then it's still a bug because it doesn't work that way either.
The fact is, this used to work properly, there was no good reason to change it, and now it's broken.
Yes. This bug is not fixed in 1.4.4.
Markku, thanks for the detailed comment. I suppose I could live with the behavior you describe although I still think that it's over-thinking the problem. IMHO, trying for "Portal-like behavior" was a misguided, although well-meant, idea. It was a thoroughly unnecessary change. It's just so much simpler to count on having your facing preserved whenever you go through any portal. Trying to achieve "Portal-like behavior" just introduces unnecessary complexity which is bound to lead to bugs (as we have seen).
If you want more details and would like to see this thing in action, here is a video that breaks it down: http://youtu.be/h80qAGuJxkw
I'm not entirely convinced this is a duplicate of
MC-6162, although it's possible that the root cause may be the same. If you say it is, I won't argue too much, but I would be sad if that were somehow fixed and this were not.Once again, you have fixed a "bug" that didn't need fixing. Fixing this breaks SO many useful builds. Anything that wanted to auto-empty a dispenser or dropper now requires much more complex redstone. I would very much like to see this "fix" reversed.
Chad: Telling people to stop complaining about a change is counter productive. I thought the whole point of making an open database like this was to acquire feedback from the users. I'm really happy that they have provided a place where I can offer my feedback and I completely respect their right to ignore my feedback when they think I'm wrong. But don't tell me not to provide it in the first place. As for your reasoning, it was quite possible to determine how full a dispenser was before this fix, so I have no idea what you were talking about there.
Jeb: I realized that there were performance implications but I still quite liked the behavior. Still, I can understand why you would feel the need to fix it for performance reasons.
Chad: The snapshot is released. I had played with it before I posted. So I guess you must not have been directing your comments at me? Either way, this is probably getting out of hand. My bad there. I'm not really worked up about this although my excessive posting may make it seem that way.
It's not that big of a deal. I'll stop now.
Unfortunately, yes, it seems to have been completely fixed now. Why was it changed from 13w07a? I thought that was a reasonable compromise. Now the build I was working on is going to need to be quite a bit larger.
No. It's NOT fixed in 13w09c. And a sideways stacking system does NOT work perfectly. It works a little better than it used to but I have verified that it is still quite broken.
Definitely still happening in 13w09c. Just walking far enough away from a chunk with a redstone clock in it can leave the clock broken.
Yes. Please DO NOT FIX THIS for droppers or dispensers. That behavior is vital to a number of important contraptions.
My method for reproducing this: create a simple redstone repeater clock. A bunch of repeaters in a circle set to 4 ticks with a simple pulse injector to get them going should do the trick. Now leave the chunk (I usually see it by entering the nether and reentering the world in a different chunk). Go back and every now and then the clock will no longer be operating.
It doesn't always happen. On 13w09c, I'm seeing it only rarely.
Confirmed. It appears as if the act of dispensing lava (or water) is behaving like a redstone update and causing the dispenser to activate again.
@Kumasasa: I can confirm Rocket Turtle's observations. Horizontal hopper behavior now appears to work correctly. Vertical behavior still seems to be a little less correct.
This is a great improvement and I could live with this just it is now but it doesn't appear to be 100% correct just yet.
@Aikar: Be very careful with that. Triggering physics on chunk load runs the real risk of breaking a lot of devices, since it would mean triggering block updates for no reason other than that the chunk loaded. A better solution would be to defer unloading a chunk until all redstone behavior is in a safe state.
Confirmed to still be a bug in 13w10a
"Fixing" this behavior for droppers and dispensers was a big mistake, IMHO. A lot of very useful and compact designs are now broken as a result of this "fix". Rapid fire dispensers are now impossible. Dropper towers (for moving items vertically) now require significantly more complicated redstone and operate significantly slower. I am going to have to rebuild a significant amount of things in my world as a result of this change. Does "fixing" this behavior actually help anyone in any significant way? This was a fix that yields no real benefit and causes a significant amount of disruption. Please reconsider this one.
@kbk: I'm glad that they still at least react to a 1 tick clock but the fact is that this still breaks a lot of stuff for very little gain. Of all of the things that this breaks, this one saddens me the most: http://youtu.be/XNaYFhl9Pqc
I will find a work-around, of course, but there is no chance of it ever being this compact or this simple.
@Tails: not any other; powered dispensers and droppers no longer react
@Jonathan Haas: No. I am not. That bug is about powered dispensers/droppers responding to block updates. This bug is about powered items responding to redstone updates. There is a subtle but important difference. The device I linked above was broken by
MC-846and would have been fixed withMC-846's fix if this bug had not also been fixed for dispensers.Edit: OK. So I thought you were referring to yet ANOTHER bug. The one about powered dispensers responding to block updates. Now that I actually bothered to READ the bug you linked, turns out I was wrong. You were right. hangs head in shame
Good heavens. So much arguing over what would be just so darn simple if the game never changed the player's orientation at all. I still fail to understand why it was ever changed. Enter facing N, exit facing N. What's so hard about that? It's predictable. It's understandable. And it's trivial to orient your portals to exploit it.
Can we please just put it back to the way it was and stop trying to engineer overcomplicated solutions to something that was never a real problem to begin with?
Markku,
I'm not arguing that your proposed fix is bad. (In fact, I'd be quite happy if Mojang would implement it.) I'm arguing that if your fix seems too difficult or risky or time consuming to the developers, they would be far better served to revert to having NO facing changes whatsoever. At least that made some sense. The way it is now makes no sense whatsoever.
And despite what you may say, it is NOT clear to me that even a significant minority of players felt there was any problem at all with the original behavior.
Patrick,
At least that was predictable behavior and it was easy to build your portals to accomodate it. Instead we have today's situation, where my carefully placed portals, which used to line up perfectly, now leave me always facing a pillar due to a seemingly random change which seems to have benefited nobody.
There is no way that you can convince me that the behavior we have now is an improvement. If Mojang is unwilling or unable to fix it properly, they should at least put it back the way it was! Even if only until they find the time to implement a proper fix! Please!